[amsat-bb] FoxTelemetry on AO-91 and AO-92

Discussion:

Hasan al-Basri

2018-10-02 11:27:37 UTC

Several of us are having a heck of a time getting any telemetry from the
above birds. DUV just isn't producing anything.

We hear both well enough to make QSOs on the FM transponders, but we can't
seem to get any data thru the decoder.

Is it really that much more difficult to get the TLM via DUV than to
listen to a voice on the 2m downlink?

Setup:
2m Eggbeater at 7', fed with 80' of 9913
AirSpy HF+ SDR
SDRC V3 Software
FMN 12 kHz (Highpass Filter not checked) and FMW both tried, neither
produce any decoded data.

I am getting telemetry just fine from AO-73, and am also getting perfect Wx
pix on 137.100 with SNR's of > 30 dB.

Am I doing something wrong, or is it just that hard to get FoxTelem to work
with DUV?

Thanks for any help. 73,
N0AN
Hasan
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Paul Stoetzer

2018-10-02 12:36:27 UTC

Permalink

How are you feeding the audio from SDR Console to FoxTelem? Are the
sample rates matched (ideally 48000)?

73,

Paul, N8HM

Post by Hasan al-Basri
Several of us are having a heck of a time getting any telemetry from the
above birds. DUV just isn't producing anything.
We hear both well enough to make QSOs on the FM transponders, but we can't
seem to get any data thru the decoder.
Is it really that much more difficult to get the TLM via DUV than to
listen to a voice on the 2m downlink?
2m Eggbeater at 7', fed with 80' of 9913
AirSpy HF+ SDR
SDRC V3 Software
FMN 12 kHz (Highpass Filter not checked) and FMW both tried, neither
produce any decoded data.
I am getting telemetry just fine from AO-73, and am also getting perfect Wx
pix on 137.100 with SNR's of > 30 dB.
Am I doing something wrong, or is it just that hard to get FoxTelem to work
with DUV?
Thanks for any help. 73,
N0AN
Hasan
_______________________________________________
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-***@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
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JoAnne Maenpaa

2018-10-02 12:54:19 UTC

Permalink

Post by Paul Stoetzer
How are you feeding the audio from SDR Console to FoxTelem? Are the
sample rates matched (ideally 48000)?

I'm using an SDRPlay RSP2 that feeds FoxTelem via VBCable. I found during
setting things up that VBCable/VoiceMeeter was configured to use the
right-channel. The 'Use Left Channel' box was checked on FoxTelem. I
unchecked the box and presumably matching right-channel to right-channel is
working ... receiving and decoding the DUV are working.

--
73 de JoAnne K9JKM
***@amsat.org

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to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
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Stephen E. Belter

2018-10-02 14:46:38 UTC

Permalink

Hasan,

The answer to your question about the difficulty is yes, and no.

There are lots of things that can block the decoding of the DUV. Get any *one* of them wrong, and it doesn't work. Get them *all* right, it works great.

I am not an expert, but here are a few suggestions.

You need a solid, full-quieting signal to decode the packets. Mark is right; this is much more difficult with an omnidirectional antenna like an eggbeater. With 80-feet of coax, you probably need a low-noise preamp at the antenna (not in the shack). When you make a voice QSO, is the signal really full-quieting?

The DUV information is very, very low frequency. You need to be receiving everything from DC to 300 hertz, and passing it to FoxTelem. Typical FM receivers (conventional analog and software defined) filter out the low frequencies so as to not include CTCSS tones which add an annoying rumble or hum to the audio. So carefully check and adjust or remove any low-frequency filtering.

Using a patch cord to connect the speaker output to a sound card input is unlikely to work. You need to be using a virtual audio cable (software utility that simulates two sound cards connected by a patch cord). Paul is correct, check the sample rates on the SDRC output, the input and output of your VAC, and the input to FoxTelem. They should all be identical.

Check the levels to make sure nothing is clipping or overloaded: Windows levels between the HF+ and SDRC, SDRC output, and VAC input and output. I'm using a FUNcube Pro+ dongle and have the Windows level on the FCD set to 9 instead of the default 100. The best level for your HF+ may be different.

I'm sorry you're having trouble. Maybe these hints and the suggestions of others will help.

73, Steve N9IP
--
Steve Belter, ***@wintek.com

On 10/2/18, 7:56 AM, "AMSAT-BB on behalf of Hasan al-Basri" <amsat-bb-***@amsat.org on behalf of ***@gmail.com> wrote:

Several of us are having a heck of a time getting any telemetry from the
above birds. DUV just isn't producing anything.

We hear both well enough to make QSOs on the FM transponders, but we can't
seem to get any data thru the decoder.

Is it really that much more difficult to get the TLM via DUV than to
listen to a voice on the 2m downlink?

Setup:
2m Eggbeater at 7', fed with 80' of 9913
AirSpy HF+ SDR
SDRC V3 Software
FMN 12 kHz (Highpass Filter not checked) and FMW both tried, neither
produce any decoded data.

I am getting telemetry just fine from AO-73, and am also getting perfect Wx
pix on 137.100 with SNR's of > 30 dB.

Am I doing something wrong, or is it just that hard to get FoxTelem to work
with DUV?

Thanks for any help. 73,
N0AN
Hasan
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-***@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-***@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings:

Burns Fisher

2018-10-02 14:57:16 UTC

Permalink

Let me add just a bit more. I have a homebrew Lindenblad (circular
polarity, omni) with an AMSAT wide band preamp out at the antenna, going to
a FunCube Dongle that is decoded directly by FoxTelem. I get hundreds of
packets per day with it. I have also used an Arrow dual-band J-pole
mounted at 45 degrees and an AirSpy wide-band preamp with nearly as good
results.

My experience is that I CAN get decodes without having completely full
quieting, but it still has to be "pretty good". I also completely agree
with Steve that the big trick is to be sure you have no high pass
filtering. Best is to use a software defined radio (I've succeeded with
both HDSDR and SDR# ) with virtual audio cable if you don't have a FunCube
Dongle.

Good luck! Let us know how you are doing. Maybe a screen shot of FoxTelem
when there is a signal coming would be helpful (although I think pictures
don't go through on this mailing list).

73,

Burns WB1FJ
Fox Flight Software

Post by Stephen E. Belter
Hasan,
The answer to your question about the difficulty is yes, and no.
There are lots of things that can block the decoding of the DUV. Get any
*one* of them wrong, and it doesn't work. Get them *all* right, it works
great.
I am not an expert, but here are a few suggestions.
You need a solid, full-quieting signal to decode the packets. Mark is
right; this is much more difficult with an omnidirectional antenna like an
eggbeater. With 80-feet of coax, you probably need a low-noise preamp at
the antenna (not in the shack). When you make a voice QSO, is the signal
really full-quieting?
The DUV information is very, very low frequency. You need to be receiving
everything from DC to 300 hertz, and passing it to FoxTelem. Typical FM
receivers (conventional analog and software defined) filter out the low
frequencies so as to not include CTCSS tones which add an annoying rumble
or hum to the audio. So carefully check and adjust or remove any
low-frequency filtering.
Using a patch cord to connect the speaker output to a sound card input is
unlikely to work. You need to be using a virtual audio cable (software
utility that simulates two sound cards connected by a patch cord). Paul is
correct, check the sample rates on the SDRC output, the input and output of
your VAC, and the input to FoxTelem. They should all be identical.
Check the levels to make sure nothing is clipping or overloaded: Windows
levels between the HF+ and SDRC, SDRC output, and VAC input and output.
I'm using a FUNcube Pro+ dongle and have the Windows level on the FCD set
to 9 instead of the default 100. The best level for your HF+ may be
different.
I'm sorry you're having trouble. Maybe these hints and the suggestions of
others will help.
73, Steve N9IP
--
On 10/2/18, 7:56 AM, "AMSAT-BB on behalf of Hasan al-Basri" <
Several of us are having a heck of a time getting any telemetry from the
above birds. DUV just isn't producing anything.
We hear both well enough to make QSOs on the FM transponders, but we can't
seem to get any data thru the decoder.
Is it really that much more difficult to get the TLM via DUV than to
listen to a voice on the 2m downlink?
2m Eggbeater at 7', fed with 80' of 9913
AirSpy HF+ SDR
SDRC V3 Software
FMN 12 kHz (Highpass Filter not checked) and FMW both tried, neither
produce any decoded data.
I am getting telemetry just fine from AO-73, and am also getting perfect Wx
pix on 137.100 with SNR's of > 30 dB.
Am I doing something wrong, or is it just that hard to get FoxTelem to work
with DUV?
Thanks for any help. 73,
N0AN
Hasan
_______________________________________________
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

Burns Fisher

2018-10-02 20:26:15 UTC

Permalink

Hasan sent me a screen shot of his attempt to collect data from one of the
Fox satellites. I also showed it to Chris, G0KLA, the author of FoxTelem.
We both agree that the problem is likely to be filtering. SOMEWHERE in
there is a high pass filter that is not allowing enough of the low
frequencies through. Another possibility is not FM demodulating a wide
enough bandwidth. You could try wide FM rather than narrow, or if it is
adjustable, set it to 5KHz.

Chris also says that he expects to be able to decode if the signal is only
a few dB above the noise, so chances are good that a weak signal is not the
problem.

Good luck and 73,

Burns WB1FJ

Post by Burns Fisher
Let me add just a bit more. I have a homebrew Lindenblad (circular
polarity, omni) with an AMSAT wide band preamp out at the antenna, going to
a FunCube Dongle that is decoded directly by FoxTelem. I get hundreds of
packets per day with it. I have also used an Arrow dual-band J-pole
mounted at 45 degrees and an AirSpy wide-band preamp with nearly as good
results.
My experience is that I CAN get decodes without having completely full
quieting, but it still has to be "pretty good". I also completely agree
with Steve that the big trick is to be sure you have no high pass
filtering. Best is to use a software defined radio (I've succeeded with
both HDSDR and SDR# ) with virtual audio cable if you don't have a FunCube
Dongle.
Good luck! Let us know how you are doing. Maybe a screen shot of
FoxTelem when there is a signal coming would be helpful (although I think
pictures don't go through on this mailing list).
73,
Burns WB1FJ
Fox Flight Software

Post by Stephen E. Belter
Hasan,
The answer to your question about the difficulty is yes, and no.
There are lots of things that can block the decoding of the DUV. Get any
*one* of them wrong, and it doesn't work. Get them *all* right, it works
great.
I am not an expert, but here are a few suggestions.
You need a solid, full-quieting signal to decode the packets. Mark is
right; this is much more difficult with an omnidirectional antenna like an
eggbeater. With 80-feet of coax, you probably need a low-noise preamp at
the antenna (not in the shack). When you make a voice QSO, is the signal
really full-quieting?
The DUV information is very, very low frequency. You need to be
receiving everything from DC to 300 hertz, and passing it to FoxTelem.
Typical FM receivers (conventional analog and software defined) filter out
the low frequencies so as to not include CTCSS tones which add an annoying
rumble or hum to the audio. So carefully check and adjust or remove any
low-frequency filtering.
Using a patch cord to connect the speaker output to a sound card input is
unlikely to work. You need to be using a virtual audio cable (software
utility that simulates two sound cards connected by a patch cord). Paul is
correct, check the sample rates on the SDRC output, the input and output of
your VAC, and the input to FoxTelem. They should all be identical.
Check the levels to make sure nothing is clipping or overloaded: Windows
levels between the HF+ and SDRC, SDRC output, and VAC input and output.
I'm using a FUNcube Pro+ dongle and have the Windows level on the FCD set
to 9 instead of the default 100. The best level for your HF+ may be
different.
I'm sorry you're having trouble. Maybe these hints and the suggestions
of others will help.
73, Steve N9IP
--
On 10/2/18, 7:56 AM, "AMSAT-BB on behalf of Hasan al-Basri" <
Several of us are having a heck of a time getting any telemetry from the
above birds. DUV just isn't producing anything.
We hear both well enough to make QSOs on the FM transponders, but we can't
seem to get any data thru the decoder.
Is it really that much more difficult to get the TLM via DUV than to
listen to a voice on the 2m downlink?
2m Eggbeater at 7', fed with 80' of 9913
AirSpy HF+ SDR
SDRC V3 Software
FMN 12 kHz (Highpass Filter not checked) and FMW both tried, neither
produce any decoded data.
I am getting telemetry just fine from AO-73, and am also getting perfect Wx
pix on 137.100 with SNR's of > 30 dB.
Am I doing something wrong, or is it just that hard to get FoxTelem to work
with DUV?
Thanks for any help. 73,
N0AN
Hasan
_______________________________________________
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

Albert van Deursen

2018-10-03 22:40:18 UTC

Permalink

Hi, I reacted two days ago on the SDR-radio.groups.io (forum users Console SDR software by Simon Brown) to a post from Hasan N0AN saying :
I have been following Simon's advice trying to decode Fox1A with a good pass this evening. Plse note that until let's say 8 months ago I was perfectly able to decode these DUV signals using the standard Fox Telem decoder ver 1.06r. Than for reasons unknown to me all of a sudden I no longer could decode any packets on any of these 3 birds. Tried several options like reinstalling old version and again new version, trying different option within the program but with zero result. Also note that I always use Console as my Rx. Anyway gave up as also heard stories that the signal conditions of these sats were decreasing. ( against this is that I see EU stations still uploading valid packets to the AMSAT server...) Still in my backhead there was always something like "isn't this just an audio issue ?? Anyway will try later this evening a pass from AO-92 ( 23:09 local time 44 degrees EL using SDR# and the HF+.. Also note that I used to use the WFM 15k option ( not NFM) as this was advised ( I vaguely remember) Not 100% sure though 73 .Will let you know the outcome of course. Also hope to learn the experience of other ham satellite decoders using V3. 73 Albert PD0OXW
=============
Well now this evening / tonight 22.00 UTC I bumped into a Fox1A pass at 40 degrees which was dead silent so only once (a very clear) "Veronica" kicked in there was DUV signal...Flabbergasted I noted that the "eye" was perfect and during two identifiers I could decode 4 packets ( confirmed on Amsat Server)...

I wonder why after months of inability to decode these signals all of a sudden the old status (correct decoding as since the start of the Telem software) seems to be back (without any change in de SDR Console software). Can it be the "the regular" HAM voice activity degrades the DUV download ? Of course will try to check on all 3 85/91/92 tomorrow and revert. (plse note I use WIMO 2/70 X-CUADS antenna's steered by G-5500)
73
Albert PD0OXW

-----Original Message-----
From: Burns Fisher [mailto:***@fisher.cc]
Sent: 02 October 2018 22:26
To: Stephen E. Belter
Cc: amsat-***@amsat.org
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FoxTelemetry on AO-91 and AO-92

Hasan sent me a screen shot of his attempt to collect data from one of the
Fox satellites. I also showed it to Chris, G0KLA, the author of FoxTelem.
We both agree that the problem is likely to be filtering. SOMEWHERE in
there is a high pass filter that is not allowing enough of the low
frequencies through. Another possibility is not FM demodulating a wide
enough bandwidth. You could try wide FM rather than narrow, or if it is
adjustable, set it to 5KHz.

Chris also says that he expects to be able to decode if the signal is only
a few dB above the noise, so chances are good that a weak signal is not the
problem.

Good luck and 73,

Burns WB1FJ

Post by Stephen E. Belter
Hasan,
The answer to your question about the difficulty is yes, and no.
There are lots of things that can block the decoding of the DUV. Get any
*one* of them wrong, and it doesn't work. Get them *all* right, it works
great.
I am not an expert, but here are a few suggestions.
You need a solid, full-quieting signal to decode the packets. Mark is
right; this is much more difficult with an omnidirectional antenna like an
eggbeater. With 80-feet of coax, you probably need a low-noise preamp at
the antenna (not in the shack). When you make a voice QSO, is the signal
really full-quieting?
The DUV information is very, very low frequency. You need to be
receiving everything from DC to 300 hertz, and passing it to FoxTelem.
Typical FM receivers (conventional analog and software defined) filter out
the low frequencies so as to not include CTCSS tones which add an annoying
rumble or hum to the audio. So carefully check and adjust or remove any
low-frequency filtering.
Using a patch cord to connect the speaker output to a sound card input is
unlikely to work. You need to be using a virtual audio cable (software
utility that simulates two sound cards connected by a patch cord). Paul is
correct, check the sample rates on the SDRC output, the input and output of
your VAC, and the input to FoxTelem. They should all be identical.
Check the levels to make sure nothing is clipping or overloaded: Windows
levels between the HF+ and SDRC, SDRC output, and VAC input and output.
I'm using a FUNcube Pro+ dongle and have the Windows level on the FCD set
to 9 instead of the default 100. The best level for your HF+ may be
different.
I'm sorry you're having trouble. Maybe these hints and the suggestions
of others will help.
73, Steve N9IP
--
On 10/2/18, 7:56 AM, "AMSAT-BB on behalf of Hasan al-Basri" <
Several of us are having a heck of a time getting any telemetry from the
above birds. DUV just isn't producing anything.
We hear both well enough to make QSOs on the FM transponders, but we can't
seem to get any data thru the decoder.
Is it really that much more difficult to get the TLM via DUV than to
listen to a voice on the 2m downlink?
2m Eggbeater at 7', fed with 80' of 9913
AirSpy HF+ SDR
SDRC V3 Software
FMN 12 kHz (Highpass Filter not checked) and FMW both tried, neither
produce any decoded data.
I am getting telemetry just fine from AO-73, and am also getting perfect Wx
pix on 137.100 with SNR's of > 30 dB.
Am I doing something wrong, or is it just that hard to get FoxTelem to work
with DUV?
Thanks for any help. 73,
N0AN
Hasan
_______________________________________________
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

Burns Fisher

2018-10-03 22:44:48 UTC

Permalink

Hmm. Interesting. My experience has been that the voice over data has no
effect, and that, in fact, I'm more likely to miss packets in a "beacon"
(i.e. with Veronica) because of not locking onto the right frequency right
away. Your mileage obviously varies!

I guess one thing to consider is that Veronica was high-pass filtered (to
make a clear space for the telemetry) manually before being loaded onto the
satellite, while repeater activity is obviously filtered in real time with
a different filter. But that does not explain why it changed over time.

Post by Albert van Deursen
Hi, I reacted two days ago on the SDR-radio.groups.io (forum users
I have been following Simon's advice trying to decode Fox1A with a good
pass this evening. Plse note that until let's say 8 months ago I was
perfectly able to decode these DUV signals using the standard Fox Telem
decoder ver 1.06r. Than for reasons unknown to me all of a sudden I no
longer could decode any packets on any of these 3 birds. Tried several
options like reinstalling old version and again new version, trying
different option within the program but with zero result. Also note that I
always use Console as my Rx. Anyway gave up as also heard stories that the
signal conditions of these sats were decreasing. ( against this is that I
see EU stations still uploading valid packets to the AMSAT server...) Still
in my backhead there was always something like "isn't this just an audio
issue ?? Anyway will try later this evening a pass from AO-92 ( 23:09
local time 44 degrees EL using SDR# and the HF+.. Also note that I used to
use the WFM 15k option ( not NFM) as this was advised ( I vaguely remember)
Not 100% sure though 73 .Will let you know the outcome of course. Also hope
to learn the experience of other ham satellite decoders using V3. 73 Albert
PD0OXW
=============
Well now this evening / tonight 22.00 UTC I bumped into a Fox1A pass at 40
degrees which was dead silent so only once (a very clear) "Veronica" kicked
in there was DUV signal...Flabbergasted I noted that the "eye" was perfect
and during two identifiers I could decode 4 packets ( confirmed on Amsat
Server)...
I wonder why after months of inability to decode these signals all of a
sudden the old status (correct decoding as since the start of the Telem
software) seems to be back (without any change in de SDR Console software).
Can it be the "the regular" HAM voice activity degrades the DUV download ?
Of course will try to check on all 3 85/91/92 tomorrow and revert. (plse
note I use WIMO 2/70 X-CUADS antenna's steered by G-5500)
73
Albert PD0OXW
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 02 October 2018 22:26
To: Stephen E. Belter
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FoxTelemetry on AO-91 and AO-92
Hasan sent me a screen shot of his attempt to collect data from one of the
Fox satellites. I also showed it to Chris, G0KLA, the author of FoxTelem.
We both agree that the problem is likely to be filtering. SOMEWHERE in
there is a high pass filter that is not allowing enough of the low
frequencies through. Another possibility is not FM demodulating a wide
enough bandwidth. You could try wide FM rather than narrow, or if it is
adjustable, set it to 5KHz.
Chris also says that he expects to be able to decode if the signal is only
a few dB above the noise, so chances are good that a weak signal is not the
problem.
Good luck and 73,
Burns WB1FJ

Post by Burns Fisher
Let me add just a bit more. I have a homebrew Lindenblad (circular
polarity, omni) with an AMSAT wide band preamp out at the antenna, going

Post by Burns Fisher
a FunCube Dongle that is decoded directly by FoxTelem. I get hundreds of
packets per day with it. I have also used an Arrow dual-band J-pole
mounted at 45 degrees and an AirSpy wide-band preamp with nearly as good
results.
My experience is that I CAN get decodes without having completely full
quieting, but it still has to be "pretty good". I also completely agree
with Steve that the big trick is to be sure you have no high pass
filtering. Best is to use a software defined radio (I've succeeded with
both HDSDR and SDR# ) with virtual audio cable if you don't have a

FunCube

Post by Burns Fisher
Dongle.
Good luck! Let us know how you are doing. Maybe a screen shot of
FoxTelem when there is a signal coming would be helpful (although I think
pictures don't go through on this mailing list).
73,
Burns WB1FJ
Fox Flight Software

Post by Stephen E. Belter
Hasan,
The answer to your question about the difficulty is yes, and no.
There are lots of things that can block the decoding of the DUV. Get

any